So I don't get where your getting "half million or so" from.
I googled: how many bison are left in united states
and got: An estimated 20 to 30 million bison once dominated the North American landscape from the Appalachians to the Rockies, from the Gulf Coast to Alaska. Habitat loss and unregulated shooting reduced the population to just 1,091 by 1889. Today, approximately 500,000 bison live across North America.
I know "north america" is more than just the U.S., but I'm not sure how many bison are in canada and mexico.
Hell, I think that Ted Turner has over 50,000 bison on his ranch. Now, the term "genetically pure" might be an issue....
Apparently they can interbreed with domestic cattle, and most of the one's called "bison" are mixes. And we got them down to 1,091!
I'm sure that got them close to insufficient genetic diversity for survival.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:02 pm
by Animal
FSchmertz wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:45 pmApparently they can interbreed with domestic cattle, and most of the one's called "bison" are mixes. And we got them down to 1,091!
I'm sure that got them close to insufficient genetic diversity for survival.
Ranchers have been breeding bison with cattle for years (beefalo). But, as far as pure bison go, there's still a ton of them. Now, genetically pure? Probably most of them are not, but you wouldn't know the difference looking at them. Genetically pure is not as simple as it sounds. Just cross breeding within the family lines (father bison fucking daughter bison) can screw that up (i think).
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Wut wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:32 am
Native Americans may disagree, so may those involved in the
Tuscagee experiments, those napalmed in Viet Nam, and maybe the former residents of Nagasaki.
Nagasaki was war and probably saved more lives on both sides than it took. Don't know the estimates of loss if an invasion of Japan was undertaken but it was massive.
Is it known if the USA tried to let Japan know what the plan was? If we gave them an option to surrender before hand and if we did, did they give us a big "Fuck you!"?
One simple communication or swallowing of pride might have saved millions of lives:
"Hello, this is the President of the United States. If you do not surrender by tomorrow, 2 of your major cities will be destroyed and millions of your people will be killed. We wish to avoid this. The choice is up to you.
Regards,
President Truman
And if the Japanese didn't believe the bomb would work they would be on a higher alert status. Thus making the bombing runs more dangerous.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:19 pm
by WestTexasCrude
So, I guess nobody can guess I was watching "Dances with Wolves" last night.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Wut wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:32 am
Native Americans may disagree, so may those involved in the
Tuscagee experiments, those napalmed in Viet Nam, and maybe the former residents of Nagasaki.
Nagasaki was war and probably saved more lives on both sides than it took. Don't know the estimates of loss if an invasion of Japan was undertaken but it was massive.
Is it known if the USA tried to let Japan know what the plan was? If we gave them an option to surrender before hand and if we did, did they give us a big "Fuck you!"?
One simple communication or swallowing of pride might have saved millions of lives:
"Hello, this is the President of the United States. If you do not surrender by tomorrow, 2 of your major cities will be destroyed and millions of your people will be killed. We wish to avoid this. The choice is up to you.
Regards,
President Truman
Hiroshima was also a pretty good warning of what else may come.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Wut wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:32 am
Native Americans may disagree, so may those involved in the
Tuscagee experiments, those napalmed in Viet Nam, and maybe the former residents of Nagasaki.
Nagasaki was war and probably saved more lives on both sides than it took. Don't know the estimates of loss if an invasion of Japan was undertaken but it was massive.
Is it known if the USA tried to let Japan know what the plan was? If we gave them an option to surrender before hand and if we did, did they give us a big "Fuck you!"?
One simple communication or swallowing of pride might have saved millions of lives:
"Hello, this is the President of the United States. If you do not surrender by tomorrow, 2 of your major cities will be destroyed and millions of your people will be killed. We wish to avoid this. The choice is up to you.
Regards,
President Truman
Hiroshima was also a pretty good warning of what else may come.
I was thinking along the lines of before either were dropped. Giving them a heads up that utter destruction is upon them if they dont surrender.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
So I don't get where your getting "half million or so" from.
I googled: how many bison are left in united states
and got: An estimated 20 to 30 million bison once dominated the North American landscape from the Appalachians to the Rockies, from the Gulf Coast to Alaska. Habitat loss and unregulated shooting reduced the population to just 1,091 by 1889. Today, approximately 500,000 bison live across North America.
I know "north america" is more than just the U.S., but I'm not sure how many bison are in canada and mexico.
Hell, I think that Ted Turner has over 50,000 bison on his ranch. Now, the term "genetically pure" might be an issue....
Apparently they can interbreed with domestic cattle, and most of the one's called "bison" are mixes. And we got them down to 1,091!
I'm sure that got them close to insufficient genetic diversity for survival.
Actually, there was one person that was directly responsible for saving the species. Texas rancher Charles Goodnight. Lobbied the govt, rounded up the remaining numbers, started a breeding program, etc in the late 1800's. You have probably heard of Goodnight. Along with partner Loving, blazed the famed Goodnight- Loving cattle trail in the late 1860's to northern markets. Loving was ambushed by Indians and shot in the knee with an arrow and died of gangrene. Goodnight hauled his body back to Texas for burial. And yes, that's what "Lonesome Dove" was based on.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:43 pm
by Animal
CHEEZY17 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:36 pm
I was thinking along the lines of before either were dropped. Giving them a heads up that utter destruction is upon them if they dont surrender.
according to captainquint's posts on Page 1, they (we) did give them plenty of notice before either were dropped. Both to the Jap government and to the Jap people.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Wut wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:32 am
Native Americans may disagree, so may those involved in the
Tuscagee experiments, those napalmed in Viet Nam, and maybe the former residents of Nagasaki.
Nagasaki was war and probably saved more lives on both sides than it took. Don't know the estimates of loss if an invasion of Japan was undertaken but it was massive.
Is it known if the USA tried to let Japan know what the plan was? If we gave them an option to surrender before hand and if we did, did they give us a big "Fuck you!"?
One simple communication or swallowing of pride might have saved millions of lives:
"Hello, this is the President of the United States. If you do not surrender by tomorrow, 2 of your major cities will be destroyed and millions of your people will be killed. We wish to avoid this. The choice is up to you.
Regards,
President Truman
Hiroshima was also a pretty good warning of what else may come.
I was thinking along the lines of before either were dropped. Giving them a heads up that utter destruction is upon them if they dont surrender.
I don't think the scale of an atomic bomb could have been adequately conveyed but we were destroying their cities with conventional bombs and they were still hanging on.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:46 pm
by Animal
WestTexasCrude wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:43 pm
Actually, there was one person that was directly responsible for saving the species. Texas rancher Charles Goodnight. Lobbied the govt, rounded up the remaining numbers, started a breeding program, etc in the late 1800's. You have probably heard of Goodnight. Along with partner Loving, blazed the famed Goodnight- Loving cattle trail in the late 1860's to northern markets. Loving was ambushed by Indians and shot in the knee with an arrow and died of gangrene. Goodnight hauled his body back to Texas for burial. And yes, that's what "Lonesome Dove" was based on.
James "Scotty" Philip (30 April 1858 – 23 July 1911) was a Scottish-born American rancher and politician in South Dakota, remembered as the "Man who saved the Buffalo" due to his role in helping to preserve the American Bison from extinction.
While he was building his cattle herd, Scotty Philip met Pete Dupree, whose son Fred had rescued 5 bison calves from an 1881 buffalo hunt along the Grand River.[2] After Dupree's death, Philip decided to preserve the species from extinction, and in 1899 he purchased Dupree's herd, which now numbered 74 head, from Dupree's brother-in-law, Dug Carlin.
Philip prepared a special pasture for the bison along the western side of the Missouri River north of Fort Pierre, and drove the herd there in 1901.
Scotty Philip died suddenly on July 23, 1911: by that time the herd had grown to approximately a thousand head. He was buried on a family cemetery near his buffalo pasture. As the funeral procession passed, some of the bison came down out of the hills. Newspapers of the time suggested the bison were "showing their respect to the man who had saved them"
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
So I don't get where your getting "half million or so" from.
I googled: how many bison are left in united states
and got: An estimated 20 to 30 million bison once dominated the North American landscape from the Appalachians to the Rockies, from the Gulf Coast to Alaska. Habitat loss and unregulated shooting reduced the population to just 1,091 by 1889. Today, approximately 500,000 bison live across North America.
I know "north america" is more than just the U.S., but I'm not sure how many bison are in canada and mexico.
Hell, I think that Ted Turner has over 50,000 bison on his ranch. Now, the term "genetically pure" might be an issue....
Apparently they can interbreed with domestic cattle, and most of the one's called "bison" are mixes. And we got them down to 1,091!
I'm sure that got them close to insufficient genetic diversity for survival.
Actually, there was one person that was directly responsible for saving the species. Texas rancher Charles Goodnight. Lobbied the govt, rounded up the remaining numbers, started a breeding program, etc in the late 1800's. You have probably heard of Goodnight. Along with partner Loving, blazed the famed Goodnight- Loving cattle trail in the late 1860's to northern markets. Loving was ambushed by Indians and shot in the knee with an arrow and died of gangrene. Goodnight hauled his body back to Texas for burial. And yes, that's what "Lonesome Dove" was based on.
Never heard of him.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Wut wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:32 am
Native Americans may disagree, so may those involved in the
Tuscagee experiments, those napalmed in Viet Nam, and maybe the former residents of Nagasaki.
Nagasaki was war and probably saved more lives on both sides than it took. Don't know the estimates of loss if an invasion of Japan was undertaken but it was massive.
Is it known if the USA tried to let Japan know what the plan was? If we gave them an option to surrender before hand and if we did, did they give us a big "Fuck you!"?
One simple communication or swallowing of pride might have saved millions of lives:
"Hello, this is the President of the United States. If you do not surrender by tomorrow, 2 of your major cities will be destroyed and millions of your people will be killed. We wish to avoid this. The choice is up to you.
Regards,
President Truman
Hiroshima was also a pretty good warning of what else may come.
I was thinking along the lines of before either were dropped. Giving them a heads up that utter destruction is upon them if they dont surrender.
I don't think the scale of an atomic bomb could have been adequately conveyed but we were destroying their cities with conventional bombs and they were still hanging on.
The US firebombing of Tokyo killed far more Japanese than the A Bombs
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Wut wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:32 am
Native Americans may disagree, so may those involved in the
Tuscagee experiments, those napalmed in Viet Nam, and maybe the former residents of Nagasaki.
Nagasaki was war and probably saved more lives on both sides than it took. Don't know the estimates of loss if an invasion of Japan was undertaken but it was massive.
Is it known if the USA tried to let Japan know what the plan was? If we gave them an option to surrender before hand and if we did, did they give us a big "Fuck you!"?
One simple communication or swallowing of pride might have saved millions of lives:
"Hello, this is the President of the United States. If you do not surrender by tomorrow, 2 of your major cities will be destroyed and millions of your people will be killed. We wish to avoid this. The choice is up to you.
Regards,
President Truman
Hiroshima was also a pretty good warning of what else may come.
I was thinking along the lines of before either were dropped. Giving them a heads up that utter destruction is upon them if they dont surrender.
Actually, giving a warning to the Japanese was probably the most heated argument in govt/ military circles during the entire war. Of course, the humanitarian aspect on one side. But, the "Hawks" on the other side had a good point, too. What if you threaten this ultimate destruction from this "secret weapon", and it doesn't work- duds. Emboldens the enemy.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:54 pm
by CaptQuint
They tested the A Bomb in the desert, they knew it worked. I should know, I delivered the bomb, the Hiroshima Bomb
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:55 pm
by hawkfan8812
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:03 pm
by Animal
looks like Charles Goodnight was a very minor player in saving any buffalo.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Antknot wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:23 am
Nagasaki was war and probably saved more lives on both sides than it took. Don't know the estimates of loss if an invasion of Japan was undertaken but it was massive.
Is it known if the USA tried to let Japan know what the plan was? If we gave them an option to surrender before hand and if we did, did they give us a big "Fuck you!"?
One simple communication or swallowing of pride might have saved millions of lives:
"Hello, this is the President of the United States. If you do not surrender by tomorrow, 2 of your major cities will be destroyed and millions of your people will be killed. We wish to avoid this. The choice is up to you.
Regards,
President Truman
Hiroshima was also a pretty good warning of what else may come.
I was thinking along the lines of before either were dropped. Giving them a heads up that utter destruction is upon them if they dont surrender.
I don't think the scale of an atomic bomb could have been adequately conveyed but we were destroying their cities with conventional bombs and they were still hanging on.
The US firebombing of Tokyo killed far more Japanese than the A Bombs
Curtis Lemay was determined that his Army Air Force would force the Japanese to surrender, one way or another without one US soldier fighting and dying on main Japanese sole. And he was right.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:09 pm
by CaptQuint
Flumper wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:03 pm
looks like Charles Goodnight was a very minor player in saving any buffalo.
How dare you, WTC has the best memory on UJ, ask Al Gore.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:15 pm
by WestTexasCrude
CaptQuint wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:54 pm
They tested the A Bomb in the desert, they knew it worked. I should know, I delivered the bomb, the Hiroshima Bomb
They had tested the prototype on top of a 100 foot tower under controlled conditions. Now throw in a 1,500 mile airflight with techs arming it mid-flight. Throw in the parachute/ altimiter issues, along with many others, and this thing was not a done deal.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
CaptQuint wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:54 pm
They tested the A Bomb in the desert, they knew it worked. I should know, I delivered the bomb, the Hiroshima Bomb
They had tested the prototype on top of a 100 foot tower under controlled conditions. Now throw in a 1,500 mile airflight with techs arming it mid-flight. Throw in the parachute/ altimiter issues, along with many others, and this thing was not a done deal.
plus you have Slim Pickens riding on it. They had never tested that.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
CaptQuint wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:54 pm
They tested the A Bomb in the desert, they knew it worked. I should know, I delivered the bomb, the Hiroshima Bomb
They had tested the prototype on top of a 100 foot tower under controlled conditions. Now throw in a 1,500 mile airflight with techs arming it mid-flight. Throw in the parachute/ altimiter issues, along with many others, and this thing was not a done deal.
I disagree, they worked perfectly
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:27 pm
by WestTexasCrude
Flumper wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:03 pm
looks like Charles Goodnight was a very minor player in saving any buffalo.
Goodnight donated a portion of his growing bison herd for the reintroduction of the species into Yellowstone National Park in 1902. Yeah, real minor.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
Antknot wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:23 am
Nagasaki was war and probably saved more lives on both sides than it took. Don't know the estimates of loss if an invasion of Japan was undertaken but it was massive.
Is it known if the USA tried to let Japan know what the plan was? If we gave them an option to surrender before hand and if we did, did they give us a big "Fuck you!"?
One simple communication or swallowing of pride might have saved millions of lives:
"Hello, this is the President of the United States. If you do not surrender by tomorrow, 2 of your major cities will be destroyed and millions of your people will be killed. We wish to avoid this. The choice is up to you.
Regards,
President Truman
Hiroshima was also a pretty good warning of what else may come.
I was thinking along the lines of before either were dropped. Giving them a heads up that utter destruction is upon them if they dont surrender.
I don't think the scale of an atomic bomb could have been adequately conveyed but we were destroying their cities with conventional bombs and they were still hanging on.
The US firebombing of Tokyo killed far more Japanese than the A Bombs
This is quite correct and the Japanese military government didn't really think the A-bomb was any more devastating than the incendiary raids.
They actually considered not surrendering after the second bomb hit but the emperor let them know he would not publicly support them.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
CaptQuint wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:54 pm
They tested the A Bomb in the desert, they knew it worked. I should know, I delivered the bomb, the Hiroshima Bomb
They had tested the prototype on top of a 100 foot tower under controlled conditions. Now throw in a 1,500 mile airflight with techs arming it mid-flight. Throw in the parachute/ altimiter issues, along with many others, and this thing was not a done deal.
I disagree, they worked perfectly
I had no idea CQ got his degree from the Edward Teller University. Learn something new everyday.
Re: Easily the most vile thing the US govt has ever done in history
